(restructured post for new readers) PRESS RELEASE: POLICE BRUTALITY AT KNOLL AID Today a peaceful celebration in defence of public space at UBC was violently quashed by the RCMP. This press release was written on April 5th at 1 a.m. with limited available information. All the events discussed herein have been either captured by camera or can be corroborated by multiple eyewitness accounts. On Friday, April 4th, UBC students loosely associated with Trek Park and SDS held "Knoll Aid 2.0," a musical celebration of public space on campus. Knoll Aid 2.0 was part of a larger campaign against the commercialization of campus, the demolition of the grassy knoll, and the development of a $40 underground bus-loop. Knoll Aid 2.0 was an overwhelmingly peaceful event and featured local musicians, free food, and three simultaneous petition drives. It was attended by primarily UBC students. Though Knoll Aid 2.0 began at noon on Friday, at around 8:00/8:30 RCMP and the Fire department arrived at the area known as "Trek Park" (a liberated space near the grassy knoll) because some students had created a small bonfire. Citing a bylaw violation, the RCMP approached one student, Stefanie Ratjen, in a rather aggressive manner and began speaking with her. After a dialogue, the contents of which are still unknown, Stefanie was grabbed by an RCMP officer and thrown to the ground, pinned, and handcuffed. Her face was literally shoved in a puddle of mud while an RCMP officer sat on top of her. After this uncalled act of police aggression, fellow students came to her aid. One musician was immediately arrested for questioning the RCMP officer's treatment of Stefanie. For approx. two hours students formed a chain to protest RCMP action and several students attempted to peacefully negotiate the release of Stefanie and the musician (whose name at this point is unknown). During this time approx. 30 RCMP cars with officers from across Vancouver and the lower mainland including Richmond came to UBC. Campus security was also present and threatened to discipline students if they did not cooperate with the RCMP. Police officers systematically attempted to break the human chain students had formed by pushing, shoving and kicking. RCMP officers randomly arrested any student present at the scene including Bahram Norouzi who was arrested in the middle of a CTV interview. At around 10:30 p.m. on approx. 25 students were arrested and detained. They were brought to a Main and Hastings detention center where they presently still remain. This press release would like to draw attention to the conduct of the RCMP. A university is intended for students, not the police. Upon entering student space, the police should have had the decency, at the very least, to deal with students in a respectful and dignified manner. Instead, RCMP officers were highly aggressive and belligerent. RCMP officers committed gross abuses of power by, for example, threatening to release dogs on students and pointing taser guns at students that were already pinned down to the floor. The actions of RCMP officers are testament of police misconduct, if not brutality. We demand the release of all students arrested and demand that all charges be dropped. Furthermore, we demand an inquiry of the RCMP's actions in relation to this event and the treatment of students. Lastly, we demand that UBC administration defends student's rights to a peaceful protest. To repeat, this was a peaceful celebration/concert in defence of public space. The RCMP had no right to violently quash a peaceful student protest. Signed, Trek Park for the People Students for a Democratic Society Student Environment Center Social Justice Center
Students peacefully protest the arrest of a fellow student Photocredit: Geoff Dunbrack
On April 4th students lit a bonfire and held a music and dance night in support of the grassy knoll on campus. The Fire Department arrived to put out the large bonfire, and this escalated into a number of confrontations and students being arrested.
The press release below was sent to me before there was anything to be found on the RCMP media website or any other news source, but from the limited information I can't help but wonder if the police used unnecessary force if its intentions were to put out a bonfire. While I don't think the police needs to act differently in a student space from anywhere else (as the press release suggests), the police conduct makes me think of 1968 Germany.
I ask that anonymous comments be at least signed with initials.
Press release from Students for a Democratic Society as well as more photos behind the jump.
Here are some photos taken by students on the scene.
Photocredit: Geoff Dunbrack
Gender Quest: Alexander Cannon
1 day ago
Posts
168 comments:
only $40 for the bus loop? hardly worth the bother... or was it more?
I have a broken summary of what I witnessed here: http://universityaffairs.blogspot.com.
So apparently Stefanie Ratjen jumped in front of the firefighter hose when they tried to put out the fire. Why would you do that? It's not like it wasn't illegal to have the bonfire going.
From what I read at Blake's blog, it sounds to me like the students were being immature and annoying. And it doesn't justify brutality, but I can understand why it would elevate the cops to that.
The cops didn't come to break up the Knoll Aid protest, and they didn't arrest them because of that either. It was because of the bonfire, and then the subsequent dancing around cop cars, which is asking for trouble, IMO.
You're so self-righteous in your belief that the Police did something wrong. Yet if you were the victim of crime you'd call them without a thought. Sad to think that our country's so-called future leaders are these students with no respect for the law.
Hi, could someone who was there please call Jeremy at the Canadian Press. 604-687-1662.
Thanks
Thank you Blake, this is very helpful.
Gina
Article's up on the CBC website.
Glad to see some sense in some of these posts. I completely agree. Those who are constantly complaining about the police and saying that they should not be on campus have most likely never been the victims of crime. Maybe they should learn some respect for people who do a dangerous job to protect all of us.
Last night, the police were doing their job. The mob mentality obviously took over and a lot of people showed a complete lack of common sense and self control.
You do have the right to protest, but you do not have the right to break the law.
-Rob G
Rob and others -
Just because the police do a dangerous and vital job protecting public and individual safety doesn't mean their actions shouldn't be subject to public scrutiny - in fact, as a public institution police actions should ALWAYS be subject to public scrutiny and debate. So please don't go on about hypocrisy or self-righteousness and let's have some discussion of the actions at hand.
They should be subject to public scrutiny, for sure. But I think Rob and others just agreed with the cops on this one. As do I.
The arrests weren't made because people were protesting the Knoll re-development. They were made because people were obstructing police officers, which is in fact against the law.
Did I say they shouldn't be subject to public scrutiny and they should be able to do whatever they want? No, I said we should have respect for them.
I simply expressed my satisfaction in the fact that someone is supporting the side of the police. We all know there will be PLENTY of people who will say the police were wrong. Its nice to have some balance.
I stand by the statement that protesters "do not have the right to break the law", which I think was the most important part of my post.
-Rob
Just curious, what happens to Stef Ratjen as an AMS executive now, in light of her arrest?
Angelina: That's up to council.
-Unique identifier 323
"You're so self-righteous in your belief that the Police did something wrong. Yet if you were the victim of crime you'd call them without a thought."
Who is the victim in the 'crime' of having a bonfire? For the life of me, I can't think of a single injured party.
(Fuck da popo)
I'm pretty sure laws like the ones banning fires are to prevent foreseeable injury and/or destruction of property.
Would you want someone coming to your home and lighting a bunch of crap on fire in your backyard?
I can't stand people who post anonymously and bring up good points. I can't even quote them. Gar! Anonymous at 12:47 brings up a good point, one that I've wondered and never got an answer too. Who legally owns the land that Trek Park sits on? Is it UBC PropTrust or some other UBC administrative group. I have no idea but I can garuntee it doesn't belong to the AMS or students in general. I think that technically means that if UBC decided that no students could come here they are within their rights to do so. Effectively Knoll Aid 2.0 lit a bonfire in someones backyard. And what of the 'crime' of having a bonfire other than above? What about the fact that fire can get out of hand quickly and burn buildings and people. Thats a good one. There are lots of reasons why public fires are not allowed, its ignorant to think that there isn't.
I actually talked to a couple of the firefighters afterwards. They said that the fire had to be extinguished because the people who were dancing around it could have tripped and fallen or accidentally get pushed into the fire. Since the bonfire was so large, this was a serious risk, in their opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIzPNHbXTuE
-Unique identifier 323
That video only makes me agree with the RCMP more. That's a huge bonfire. Stefanie never should have jumped in front of the hose.
Geoff - UBC properties trust doesn't own anything. It's a corporation owned by UBC that deals with UBC institutional building projects (contractors, budgets, etc. etc.) The land belongs to UBC, which is a publicly funded and owned institution. So it's not like lighting a fire in some private person's backyard. That doesn't mean it's not illegal.
Seems like the firefighters had good reason to put it out - from the pictures, it was very large and big fuel like wooden pallets were being aded to it. People trying to obstruct firefighters and police should have known what was coming to them. Police aren't fair, and they aren't consultative, and they aren't democratic: they have to control situations on the spot - that's their job. Nuance and fairness doesn't come into play when there's tumult, and we all know it. Hopefully the individuals will be dealt with fairly through the leagal process.
I have posted a video of the fire incident here: http://universityaffairs.blogspot.com/
Maayan or Gina: the caption to your posted picture is incorrect. Those students were not protesting the arrest of Stef Ratjen - she had already been released at that point. They are protesting the arrest of a different student who allegedly assaulted a police officer and is sitting in the that police car.
By the way Gina - how does the label "peaceful protest" somehow excuse illegal and obnoxious behavior? Yeah, it wasn't violent protesting, but obstructing firefighters and police is wrong all the same. Peaceful protesting is only peaceful as long as it's left alone. Once peaceful protesters have to be removed, it's easy to accuse the people removing them of being "violent" in contast. So very convenient.
I'm having a hard time swallowing that this was a 'peaceful' protest.
Geoff,
The post you refer to was also by me. Sorry I forgot to include my name.
-Rob G
What I don't understand is why Stef Ratjen is now being detained - I had initially thought (from Blake's post) that she was released? Was she arrested a second time around?
I was in the area with the big glass windows at the south end of the SUB, and it most certainly was not a "small bonfire". The thing was huge; I could see a massive tongue of flame, about as high as the Knoll, from my seat.
Also, if the story that's seems to be piecing itself together is true, then this started because someone decided to try to resist not the police, but the fire department (with the police present). Which is really just dumb; they know much better than the average person what constitutes a hazard, and can hardly be said to represent the Man.
I'm not sure Gina. I think she may have been arrested a second time around for being a part of the "car protest". I didn't witness this, but apparently she was detained, according to Jasmine.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gBHl0lTc080RyoUrikGQHo609OdA
Thanks you Tristan...? Way to step out of your bounds.
A friend of a friend apparently said that people got permission from campus security for the bonfire, and there was pepper spray involved.
Anybody know about this?
She is currently in front of the hearing with the judge - along with Nathan Crompton and some other students.
In one of the youtube videos, the "protesters" are chanting "save the knoll, fuck the pigs" shouted over and over again. Verbally assaulting ANY PERSON (police or otherwise) in that manner is wrong. I am a firm believer in respecting one another, regardless of your job.
From the limited footage I have seen (which, no offense, I trust a lot more than eye whiteness accounts), the firemen seem to be acting professionally, and the students are aggravating the situation.
-Rory Green
After watching the video, it looks like the protesters were more concerned with getting attention for themselves and making a a scene than anything else. They give a bad name to those of us who support the knoll through real "peaceful protest."
The firefighters were acting professionally, in my opinion, yes. The more alarming scenes took place during the protest around the police car when students were physically kicked and dragged by the police.
Thanks for the info Maayan. And sorry Rob, I was more joking about my anger than anything!
Blake,
Arrest is not optional.
-Rob
I am ashamed to be a UBC student.
These are supposed to be my peers. These people are earning the same degree as me. These people are now representing me on CTV, CBC, and beyond.
That we have students like this on our campus, earning UBC degrees, LEADING our student society simply leaves me speechless.
That Stef and Tristan (only the AMS president can speak for the society) would act in this unprofessional way is shocking. Not only have they smeared themselves with their actions, but they have also spread that taint on to both UBC and the AMS. I think an immediate impeachment (or at the very least, censure) is called for.
Disgusting.
Thankfully, I won't be here for much longer to have to keep witnessing this.
"Fuck the pigs" indeed.
This just demonstrates so clearly how privileged we are as UBC students. This protest was first about "save the knoll", which is relatively frivolous and then changed to "save the fire", which is incredibly frivolous.
Considering all the things that are wrong in the city, that deserve protest, why not just let the firefighters put out a hazardous fire, and protest something worthwhile?
And I agree that shouting "fuck the pigs" is incredible hostile, not peaceful.
Though of course the police are obligated to deal with crap like this without resorting to brutality.
- Alison Brown
A police officer kept responding to the appeals to let Stefanie go saying that the bonfire was a public threat. After the fire was out, and the police refused to release Stefanie or Icarus, the protest wasn't any longer for the knoll, but against the violent treatment by the RCMP towards the students that all of us witnessed. There are pictures of two police officers laying on top of Icarus and later dragging Stefanie and pressing her against the pond. When Stefanie was released, every energy went towards getting the same fair decision made about Icarus, who was being kept inside the police car. The police seemed to ignore the appeals: "Let him go, we'll go home." and it was terrifying to see the police building this strategic force around the mass of students. The first move the police made, arresting 8 students, who were seen dragged and handcuffed, showed they were willing to take Icarus, and as many students that would stay there. There should have been student representation to get to a civilized dialogue and agreement without having the scandal of 25 students in jail. From what I remember the police wasn't listening to what students had to say, and a diplomatic intervention from the university to buffer the students could have prevented a lot of violence to happen. Such a delicate conflict, involving discussion of who was passive or aggressive, grew into violence of such magnitude, between police officers and students. No matter how illegal the bonfire was, there was aggression for the rest of the night while the fire had long been out. The bonfire was illegal, not responding to the police officers to move out of the way of the fire fighter was wrong, but why the threats afterwards? It is surreal to see the pictures of the afternoon and later the mess it became. In the end, what do 25 student arrested say about the genuine will for students to take part of how our university development treats the campus?
A lot of people are saying students were "dragged". From the CBC video it is clear that these students had the option to walk but they chose to go limp to make the arrests more difficult. Are the police suppose to let anyone go free that doesn't want to be arrested? Thats a humorous thought.
This was not police brutality. It was normal procedure.
"violent treatment by the RCMP"
Where were the video cameras when this was happening? I'll believe it when I see it.
I dont want to judge the physical action of neither Stefanie nor Icarus, it was confusing and even the ones who were present have different explanations for it. What I know, is that they were both being arrested to have not responded to move out. Why then agreeing that it was fair to let Stefanie go and not Icarus? The students wanted justice for both their friends.To be honest I dont see any reason for arresting Icarus; the police should have let them go, the fire was out, it could have ended with the message of knoll aid out there, and not the media frenzy of ubc students in jail.
Finally we have word from the police:
http://www.rcmp-bcmedia.ca/index2.html
Also the DA (i.e. me) had something to say.
I am increasingly dismayed at the level of discourse at ubcinsiders. Every thread anonymous foot soldiers line up to hurl bile while contributing absolutely nothing of value. Many of those who espouse beliefs close to those represented by SDS seem to only sanction protest which is not only peaceful but obsequious.
RCMP misconduct at UBC is nothing new. Remember APEC (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2001/08/07/apec010807.html)?
Whether or not the protesters were unduly rude to the RCMP, this does not in any way sanction the use of excessive force against them. This argument sounds to me much like, "She was asking for it, the way she was dressed." Protests are about getting noticed, and the police have to understand the context they are working in. Sitting down around the police car is classic SDS-of-the-60s. You'd think they'd be prepared for this by now and know how to conduct themselves properly in these situations. Although I suppose the student "movement" has become so apathetic in recent years that an actual protest at UBC might come as a shock.
We know very little about what really happened on Friday. Why did Stef jump in front of the hoses? Was she trying to talk to the firefighters, to negotiate a less-destructive way to put out the fire? Or did she get carried away in the spirit of the protest? I don't know. Why was she then released, while the other student was not? I have no idea.
The videos don't show us much regarding whether the RCMP used excessive force, but Blake's account suggests they did. Blake seems like a responsible witness to me. Unless we have more eyewitness reports, that's really all we have to go on.
Jumping on the blame-the-victim bandwagon without knowing more is just ignorant and mean-spirited.
"She was asking for it, the way she was dressed."
ARE YOU SERIOUS? This is completely different. Those students were not innocent.
Your comment about student apathy almost proves that radicals are just looking for anything to protest. Even if the student body doesn't care.
That comment was ridiculous!
You would rather believe an eye witness account that says there was violence than the numerous videos that haven't shown any? That makes absolutely no sense.
Why should protesters get more leeway from officers? If they know they are going to be intentionally disrupting the law, they should know the maximum repercussions they'll incur.
anon: soldier on!
kristen: The only video footage of arrests that I have seen, from CBC, is very brief, and does not show the initial arrest. It is hardly evidence that no misconduct occurred. The youtube video shows nothing relevant.
Mike: could you suggest a "less destructive" way to put out a large fire except for hosing it down?
Also, what is the "proper" procedure with dealing with people pecefully protesting (like blocking acess, sitting down around a car, etc.)? After they're told to move and don't, well, either they have to be removed by force or left there. Clearly police are not obligated to negotiate with or capitulate to people that break the law. If people refuse to budge and have to be dragged away, it's hardly "excessive". If there was excessive force and people were injured or pushed around for no good reason, of course that's a problem. But from what I've seen in the videos the the big nature of the reisstance to the firefighters and police was purely frivolous and ridiculous, and the people that chose to be bodily moved instead of walking have nothing to complain about.
"save the fire"?
"fuck the pigs"?
This is purely frivolous and moronic. I really question Stef's judgement by participating in such a "protest"
I don't understand why it is so hard to comprehend that obstructing police and fire department work and shouting abuse at them has repercussions. It seems to me that the 'protesters' were trying to provoke police reaction rather than solve the problem and go home.
Canada is one of the most 'free' countries on earth. The students were allowed to 'peacefully' protest the establishment until they got out of hand and resisted police and fire brigade intervention. I think they should go to China or Russia and then complain about police brutality.
Ed B.
I'm going to be writing a much longer account of what I saw as I was trying to negotiate with the police (which were told was what was going to happen) and was right there throughout all the arrests. Basically, Stef and Icarus were both arrested for the relatively minor charge of obstruction while the fire was put out. A really important point is that several people saw Campus Security assisting with the arrests.
I don't agree with starting the fire and I'm fine with them putting it out, but what happened after that point was appalling and extremely scary. Several students locked arms with Stef and we began talking to the police officer arresting her. While this was happening Icarus was taken into the police cruiser. While preventing him from removing her, but with no aggression on either side, we convinced the police officer to let Stef go and just take down her name.
So, surprise surprise...since it worked that time students did the same thing with Icarus. Students formed a circle around the car and began dancing and singing. A police officer was still able to enter and exit the vehicle to presumably check on Icarus and get some paperwork. Nobody touched the car and we were hoping to be able to talk to the police and resolve the situation like we had with Stef.
At this point, the police quickly escalated by calling in RCMP officers from Richmond, the Vancouver Police Department, undercover cops, and eventually even the transit police. In all, there were over 18 police cars and two paddywagons. When I approached the RCMP, one of the officers said to the other, knowing I was within earshot, "Well, if they make us, let's bring in the dogs". I knew then that this situation was going to end extremely poorly.
The following is my interpretation of what happened with the police, but I think its pretty accurate. In order to save face, the younger cop who had let Stef go upped the charges against Icarus and said he was arrested for assault and also told his supervisor that we were preventing them from accessing the police car. Once they heard this, and now that there were over 30 police officers at the scene, the decision was made to arrest the individuals who were now sitting in front of the police cruiser. The police went in and began forcefully separating the individuals and dragging them along the ground. At this point the police also began being very aggressive towards the crowd. They arrested one fellow who was just trying to ride his bike home (Lucas Gallagher I think) and was not able to move back quickly enough. The grabbed him over the side of his bike and dragged him to the rest of the individuals. At least two or three other people who weren't involved at all with the initial protest were arrested in a similar way. Bahram was detained (handcuffed but told he wasn't under arrest) right after giving his interview with the CBC, even though he was standing at the same distance as everyone else.
There is nothing wrong with yelling shame at the police when they are acting shameful. The escalated the situation rather than trying to diffuse it, even though by that point there was no physical threat to anybody. They completely overreacted to the situation, and this was especially terrible given the precedent they set with what happened to Stef. I was extremely shaken up by the entire thing, as were many of the people watching. After the police starting arresting random bystandards who didn't respond to their instructions quickly enough, the shouts of shame grew far beyond the individuals who were part of the original situation. Shame on the police for how they handled this entire situation.
I can attest that Steven Klein's portrayal of the situation is entirely accurate. I also saw several bystanders get arrested for getting too close to the human blockade of police officers, at which point I backed off myself for fear of being arrested.
Steven, from what I saw on the video the 'protesters' were yelling "shame on you" at the fire brigade way before anything escalated. Such behavior is disgraceful.
And from what I could hear on the clip, a lot of people were getting very hyper and aggressive (verbally) as soon as the RCMP/VFD arrived.
I'm sick and tired of hearing people seemingly comparing what happened yesterday to some actual form of police brutality such as witnessed in the USSR, GDR, China etc. It makes what happened yesterday seem way worse than it is, and makes actual police brutality look less horrible.
Ed B.
In my opinion, I don't think the term "police brutality" accurately portrays the nature of the arrests. I do think, however, that in a number of cases, excessive force was used. I saw one girl down on the ground get kicked in the head by a police officer. There was simply no need for it.
I think if more students would have been like you, Blake, this wouldn't have been a problem. It was when people got aggressive and started taunting the police officers and the fire department that things got out of hand. I agree that perhaps on some levels, they went too far, but honestly, I think it was asked for. I just can't imagine what Stefanie Ratjen was thinking, jumping in front of the fire hose? It was an illegal, and incredibly large bonfire.
By taking the knoll and the bonfire, and using these as idols to represent a cause, I think it's demeaning it. You're missing the picture. Saving one little grassy hill or one little flaming fire is not going to be the victory. You have to fundamentally change the structure of university practice, and that takes more than a few sit-ins on a grassy hill.
Shame on these people for trivializing something that could be a great campaign. I don't personally agree with it, and fully welcome campus commercialization, but if these people took the classy road, I'd despise them less.
Titling the post with the words "peaceful protest" pretty clearly shows how important it is to be clear in your explanation of events. Watching the CBC video and the youtube clip both make it very clear that the protest was not exactly peaceful. As a general rule, fifteen foot high flames are not interpreted as a "peaceful" measure.
While strongly disagreeing with Stef's decision to obstruct firemen from putting out an uncontrolled blaze, she has the right to do so. However, when you do something like that, you have to be prepared to face the consequences, which will almost certainly include arrest. Protesters who then run around and scream "Fuck the Pigs" at police officers also have the right to do that, but also have to face the consequences of those actions.
It's embarrassing that these students are attempting to characterize being slowly dragged, upright, by two police officers to a police car as "police brutality." Both videos pretty clearly indicate no such thing occurring. As for excessive force - when someone does not want to be arrested, there is always going to be some level of physicality required. Being pushed to the ground while being arrested is not excessive - it may be unpleasant, but such is the deal.
Bigger problems about this entire situation, in my opinion, is the behaviour of elected AMS exec. For Tristan to speak on behalf of the AMS is completely improper. The President is the public face of the AMS and as such should be the one speaking to the media AFTER consultation with the rest of the exec as to the proper course of action. Also, for Stef to get herself arrested for trying to keep an illegal bonfire going is absolutely heinous behaviour for someone who is supposed to represent the school externally.
It makes me sad that this is the way elected members are choosing to represent the school. It almost makes me long for the days of Amina et al, even though they tried to fire Bernie, at least they never got arrested.
Best of luck to Mike Duncan cleaning up this mess - not the best birthday he's ever had, I'm sure.
- Dave Claassen, AUS President 2005-2006.
David: "...she has the right to do so. However, when you do something like that, you have to be prepared to face the consequences, which will almost certainly include arrest."
Well said.
I'm going to occupy some middle ground territory here and say that both the protesters/partiers/knollies and the police could and should have made more effort to resolve the scenario without many/any arrests. From the eyewitness accounts it sounds like less force on the police's part could have been used; however without more evidence I wouldn't classify what did occur as brutality.
I'm disappointed at the attitude of some (it seems like all from the video, but many claim to have been negotiating as well) students there: hostile from start to finish. Shouting "fuck the pigs" is better left to when they're pepper spraying you while trying to blockade a street, not when they're dousing your illegal fire. Also, is it the alcohol or does everything become a symbol of capitalist oppression? I can buy that the knoll stands for a university and campus centred on students, but am I really to believe that the fire = the knoll? There is a point at which the symbols you're defending are just not worth it.
I also eagerly await a better description of the motivations of the students (including Stef) who initially tried to stop the fire from being doused.
I love the "The videos didn't show excessive force but those who were there saw it" comment.
No one with a video camera thought to tape the excessive force? I think not. It wasn't recorded because it didn't happen. The people working the cameras didn't just decide to ignore it.
Is being arrested appropriate behavior for AMS Executives?
Is this a case where their actions should be praised or condemned?
Does anyone think UBC will do anything about this? Maybe set a precedent of some sort?
I doubt Knoll Aid will be around anymore...
Francois
"A lot of people are saying students were "dragged". From the CBC video it is clear that these students had the option to walk but they chose to go limp to make the arrests more difficult."
FINALLY! Someone spoke what I had in mind. It's obvious that the students chose to be difficult instead of just walking normally or even physically resisting at all. They weren't dragged violently.
It's appalling that a member of the AMS Executives participated in something like this. As well for Jasmine Ramze Rezaee - who wrote that shameful article about the "military invading the POLI/IR department" - well, apparently the very department that she despises is the one that is sponsoring her and the Political Science Students Association and their Journal 2008. It's so funny. With her as the editor-in-chief and her "objective" views, I find it difficult to believe the journal will be anything of substance, let alone of quality. I'm ashamed to be enrolled in a program with someone like that.
Maayan: I have no idea. I wasn't there. The only way to know why Stef stepped in front of the hose is to ask her.
I have no problem with the firemen or the police doing their job. Whatever Stef's reasons, or the reasons of the students who obstructed the police car, the police seem to be well within their rights to remove and arrest them.
That's not the issue. The issues are whether the police used more force than necessary to do their job (dragging someone isn't excessive, but kicking someone in the head is) and whether they needlessly escalated the situation. One thing you can see in the videos is the police tackling some kid who seems to be riding away from the scene. Maybe they told him he was under arrest and he was fleeing, but if not that appears excessive.
I don't know. I'm in Toronto. But the video footage shows very little, and many people seem eager to condemn the students with very little indication either way.
Mike,
Perhaps people seem eager to condemn the students because of the initial reports, statements and press releases by some individuals and organizations.
The students involved immediately sought to portray the police as heinous villains who terrorized innocent "peaceful" protesters. Just take a look at the facebook group condemning the "violence" by the RCMP.
The "peacefulness" of the protest is more than questionable. Peace is more than just the lack of physical violence. I believe the students commenting on this board are tired of Trek Park people pretending they speak for the entire student body when in fact I believe they are a minority.
If a police officer asks you not to move and you try and run (or bike) away, the end result should be obvious. I don't know about this head kicking...sounds like a gross exaggeration to me.
-Rob
I notice that UBC has a "Bulletin" up about this.
www.ubc.ca/bulletins/index.html
I, for one, am outraged that one of the most fundamental of human rights, that of being free to build massive bonfires in random locations, is being so blatantly trampled. It burns me up inside to see what is undoubtedly the first step in a campaign to eliminate ALL rapid oxidations of carbon based materials.
-Cameron F. (unnell)
"A university is intended for students, not the police. Upon entering student space, the police should have had the decency, at the very least, to deal with students in a respectful and dignified manner."
Who wrote this junk? Upon entering student space, STUDENTS should act in a respectful manner. I didn't know that school wasn't a place for the police; what about that incident at the Biological Sciences Building. I didn't hear anyone complaining about police presence then.
Hell, I'm all for keeping the grassy knoll. But I do not agree with the whole approach. If you want to be treated with respect you have to act with respect. Sorry, that's just the way it goes.
How a sit-in turned in to arrests at U of T:
http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2008/03/24/u-of-t-denies-student-protestors-were-mistreated
-Unique identifier 323
Does anyone know if any charges have been laid on any of the people arrested?
Further "press release" from the Knoll Aid people.
______________________
April 5th, 2008
Students for a Democratic Society - UBC
Press Release: Musical Concert Against Commercial Development at UBC Ends in Mass Arrests; Students Demand Public Inquiry
UBC students are calling for a public inquiry into the behaviour of the RCMP and UBC Campus Security as police made mass arrests at a musical concert against commercial development at UBC. The event, KnollAid 2.0, was meant to be an awareness-raising musical concert against the planned construction of a poorly planned underground bus loop and the commercialization of the centre of campus. Students have been outraged at the lack of meaningful consultation and undemocratic actions of the administration in developing this space. The focus of the musical concert was the grassy knoll, a centre of social life at UBC that is slated for destruction by the UBC administration.
As the event wound down, Campus Security, the RCMP, and the Fire Department arrived and successfully put out a bonfire that had been created by some of the concertgoers. In the process, Campus Security and the RCMP arrested two individuals for allegedly interfering with the firefighters. Students peacefully protested what they saw as the wrongful arrest of one of the individuals by locking arms with her and sitting down. They then convinced the police officer to remove her handcuffs and she was released. Immediately after, they surrounded the police cruiser and attempted to convince the police officer to release the other student who was being detained.
Over the course of the next two hours, well after the original situation with the bonfire was under control, over 18 police vehicles and 30 police officers descended on UBC campus. They included members of the Vancouver Police Department, Richmond RCMP, and Transit Police. These reinforcements verbally threatened to use police dogs and tasers to disperse the protestors. Around midnight, they descended upon the protestors peacefully protesting infront of the police cruiser. They also indiscriminately arrested many bystanders, including an individual who stumbled upon the scene while biking home. They trained tasers on students who were already being forced into the ground by multiple police officers. One individual was handcuffed and detained immediately after giving an interview with CBC news. Observers were shocked at the confrontational attitude and brutal tactics of the police.
Since then, the RCMP has attempted to cover up their behaviour by distorting the timeline of events and outright lying. RCMP spokespeople are claiming that police backup was called because they were unable to put out the bonfire. In fact, the additional RCMP detachments were called well after the original situation was under control. They are claiming only one individual was arrested while they were putting out the bonfire. In fact, two individuals were arrested but one was released. They are claiming that the situation was dangerous until the additional officers came and made the mass arrests. In fact, the RCMP officers on the scene stood around and exchanged friendly chatter with students while they waited for two hours for reinforcements. They are claiming that they issued multiple verbal warnings. In fact, not a single warning was issued in the two hours that the RCMP waited for reinforcements, and immediately before the arrests they asked a student to issue a single!
verbal
warning before issuing a single verbal warning themselves. Only a public inquiry can establish why the RCMP is distorting the events of April 4th in this manner.
Students are also demanding that the UBC administration initiate an internal inquiry into the behaviour of Campus Security. At the concert, many witnessed them using force while assisting in the arrest of the two students. When witnesses asked them about it afterwards, the Campus Security officers denied any involvement. Campus Security has a long history of harassing and intimidating students peacefully protesting the commercialization of campus.
Press Contacts:
Steven Klein, UBC Student and witness of the arrests - 604-240-1344
Tristan Markle, AMS VP-Admin - 778-836-9877
Margaret Orlowski, UBC Student - 604-781-3195
____________________________
I would like to draw your attention to the signatures at the bottom. Most notably VP Administration of the AMS, Tristan Markle who has taken it upon himself to get the AMS involved without going to either the exec or council.
I am entirely unimpressed by the conduct of the protesters, as shown by the videos. I am especially unimpressed with the conduct of both Stefanie and Tristan.
It is unbecoming of an executive of the AMS to be arrested at a protest on campus, let alone the VP External, who is expected to liase with the university administration and RCMP among other groups. It is especially concerning that she was the person who instigated the entire series of events by first preventing the firefighters from putting out the fire. I think there need to be some serious questions asked about whether Stef is able to properly represent the AMS and students of UBC, especially to these external groups.
Tristan is not in the limelight quite to the same extent, but there are still some alarming concerns. Firstly, he should not be making comments to external media sources on behalf of the AMS (calling on Stephen Toope to investigate allegations from that evening.) Secondly, he should not be signing press releases such as the aforementioned one in a manner which attaches his AMS role to them. I am quite certain that the press release was not vetted by the AMS executive, and I know Council would likely have some concerns about it. It is alarming to see such documents being directly associated to the AMS, especially without consulting the rest of the executive.
-Anon 42
"Around midnight, they descended upon the protestors peacefully protesting infront of the police cruiser."
Uhhh...WRONG.
I walked past there at shortly after 11:00pm and not a soul was there. Word had spread to the RBF beer garden about the 19 arrests around 10:00-10:30ish.
Yeah, that's true. Its a bit early to have us to have put together a detailed timeline. I don't really see how relevant that is at this point to the overall discrepancies with the RCMP's version of events.
I guess my question is did two hours really pass where people just stood there after the fire was put out, and then the cops starting taking people down? That sounds fishy. I left Koerner's at 8pm and I heard sirens from the centre of campus.
I just want to say specifically to those issuing the press releases, though I disagree with the conduct of some protectors, I want to take your word about the actions of the police. After all, the conduct of protesters and the conduct of police are two separate issues. But, your press releases so obviously distort at least some facts, thus I can't help but think the allegations might be exaggerated too. The fire was not "small" and the protest was not "winding down", for example. Also, why portray the attest of those blocking the police car as if it's some grave injustice? That's exactly what police are supposed to in such circumstances.
So, if you want support, I think you ought to be more reasonable and fair in your portrayal of events. I bet the average Vancouverite now thinks UBC students live in a fantasy world where firefighters ought not to put out fires, and where arrest is optional.
I understand that Students for a Democratic Society want to save the knoll, among other things. I even like the idea of knoll-aid. I do indeed like bonfires (as I have also had my bonfires squashed by the police), but that doesn't make it right.
When I see students starting to heckle police officers, and watching Stefani step in front of the bonfire to stop the firefighters from dousing it, I understand that their actions stem from the the myriad of police-related events on campus, the "war on fun," BUT for pete's sake, videos portraying this event make me embarrassed to be a UBC student because you THINK that we would be smart enough to CHANGE things without resorting to heckling, obnoxious presentations, and name-calling.
Whenever I hear a knolly talk about the UBC administration, the police, anyone in AUHTHORITY all they do is COMPLAIN.
In order for there to be real change on campus, you must work with UBC and the police in a professional manner.
In regards to police brutality, well, just remember...these police officers don't have a vendetta against the knoll, they probably don't even know about all the protests that SDS have been doing, they are just doing their job and are human like the rest of us.
sorry that this message is so long.
I hope that the AMS does not support this action by some irresponsible UBC students. What the numerous videos show is SHAMEFUL actions on the part of many UBC students. These are actions that should not and, after reading these numerous posts, are not supported by a lot of students who see the need for UBC students to work with the RCMP to co-exist on campus. How else do we fight the war on fun???
I also hope that some sort of action is taken to prevent AMS Executives from acting improperly in the future. I need not say what has already been said (read above if confused), needless to say that someone or some body (maybe the AMS Council) needs to reign in the actions of its executives, who are supposed to represent all students.
For those reasons I say "SHAME".
This anonymous man is my new HERO!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-VNuB9c56A&feature=related
Steven, if you're going to issue a press release bitching about how the RCMP and police are distorting the story, it might be wise to check the timelines yourself.
As someone who is from one of the most well-known protest capitals of America (Portland, OR) and has seen unjustified and ACTUAL police brutality at peaceful protests, I'm appalled with the Knollies right now. I've been a part of probably ten or so protests in my lifetime and after watching all the knoll videos so far, I can MAYBE see two incidents where the cops went too far. I'm extremely curious as to why the bike guy was plucked out of the crowd and I saw another guy get lifted by his feet and dropped on his head on one point. Otherwise, when someone tells you to go home and disperse, it's time to go home and disperse.
First off, do not screw with the fire department. They were there to do their job, and OF COURSE they were going to bring police backup if twenty-five plus people are milling around a fire. Anyone that starts a fire on public property creating an unsafe situation without proper equipment to extinguish that fire, and then has the nerve to impede the VFD from doing their job, deserves to spend a night in jail.
Secondly, if you go to a protest and push the line you have to be willing to face consequences. Sure, when my friends were shot with rubber bullets in 2003 the first night of the Iraq War, as they stood 40 ft. away from cops on a sidewalk, that was an unexpected and unwarranted consequence. At the same time, when I sat with those same friends three hours earlier and blocked a street, I knew there was a high potential for me to get arrested. I was prepared to face that consequence. Keep in mind, I hadn't started a fire or was hurling obscenities and insults about the cops being pigs. However, I knew that by even being there someone in the crowd near me could do something stupid so that the police felt the need to take us all in to quell a potential unsafe situation.
Trek Park kids, I totally agree with your message, but the reason you will never see me standing beside you is because of your reckless and childish behaviour. It's sad because this IS important and this continual development of the campus is distressing. However, after these actions I severely doubt you will have motivated the apathetic at UBC to join your cause. If anything, you've motivated them to just plain dislike you and your message.
"I guess my question is did two hours really pass where people just stood there after the fire was put out, and then the cops starting taking people down?"
Yes, at least. I was talking with some of the RCMP officers while they waited for back up. A more accurate timeline would be that the fire incident occurred around 8 and the mass arrests around 10. By that point, the fire was out and there was no apparent threat of danger to anyone. Yes, the people blocking the police car were prepared to be arrested, but it didn't need to have come to that point. And the police then overreacted even more by arrested several people in the crowd.
I can tell you that the only reason that many police were called was because the original police officers exaggerated what was happening. They changed the charges against the fellow in the car from obstruction to assault and they claimed that students were blocking their access to the police car, even though one of the officers was able to go in and get paperwork and check on the individual.
I am really appalled at the number of people who are so willing to accept the police narrative and get outraged at the students. I don't think there was excessive "police brutality" (would have been surprising given the number of cameras rolling) but I do think there were 19 unnecessary arrests. Some of the police were definitely looking for a fight and they were the one's who nabbed people on the edge of the crowd when they could have just let them move back. You can see that clearly when Elliot is being arrested in the longer youtube video. I really don't know what everyone's complex is that they are willing to jump on protesters and justify unnecessary police violence, but it is nothing new.
Steven,
As you explained the fire was out and the situation was calmed. So I guess you are asking why didn't the police just go away and let people continue their party?
Well the students had already proven that they were likely to cause more trouble. They also showed absolutely no remorse for starting an illegal fire, this is proven by the "Save the Fire, Save the Knoll" chants. The police had reasonable grounds to believe that, if allowed to continue, the protest would once again get out of hand. Maybe someone would even get hurt.
Where along the lines did people forget that police are authority figures? They are specially trained in the law and have specific instructions on what to do in situations like this. Lawful instructions from police officers are not optional...they are to be followed. Telling you to go home or disperse is NOT UNLAWFUL.
And as for the "they were just peacefully blocking the police car" I respond with Section 129(a) of the Criminal Code of Canada: "Everyone who resists or wilfully
obstructs a public officer or peace officer in the execution of his duty...is guilty of an indictable offense and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or a summary conviction.
Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking the law.
-Rob
(My experience with the event consists of enjoying the music and party until the fire was lit, at which point I left. I later returned after the first two arrests had been made, and quietly observed until everyone left.)
While there are many individuals bemoaning the poor conduct of both the students and the police, I would like to point out that it wasn't as bad as it easily could have been. There were comments amongst the police that seemed to imply the consideration of bringing in dogs. This would most certainly have been over the top, as would the use of pepper spray, teargas, or anything beyond physical force. I'm not concerned that the police had to be rough with some of the students, those students knew what they were doing and the police had a job to fill, I'm just happy that the police didn't use anything more.
On the other hand, I might go so far as to commend the "mob" of students for being quite reasonable. They did what they felt was right, such as sitting in a peaceful manner and trying to communicate, and didn't respond to police physicality in kind. The shouting and yelling was only verbal abuse, and is something that the police should (and did) ignore.
I feel points have and will be made by both sides, and I honestly hope that some dialog results in an improved understanding for both parties. If anyone expects their view to be heard, they had better listen equally well to what the other opinions are saying. I hope that that will include you.
Perhaps the police shouldn't have released stef the first time... it seemed to only aggravate the situation by giving the protesters the belief that they can dictate what the police do...
-an observer
I do think people's hostility towards the Knoll group may be slightly getting the better of them here. Yes, given their actions, they shouldn't be surprised to get arrested. Yes, obstructing the fire department is an act of limited intelligence.
But still, why so quick to pour scorn on Blake's and Stephen's accounts? Overly heavy-handed police behaviour isn't exactly unknown. It does seem that someone got arrested just for trying to cycle home, and if someone did get kicked in the head then, well, that's just indefensible.
A feeling of irritation with some of the people behind the protests (which I share) shouldn't lead us to immediately decide the police are incapable of wrongdoing.
I don't believe the method of arrest displayed in the videos is particularly excessive - I've seen it before and nobody seems to have got seriously hurt - but I'm not going to dismiss a story of a kick to the head just because none of the videos so far released managed to capture it. And the bike incident does seem to be documented on them.
Yeah too bad the protesters wouldn't stop screaming "fuck the pigs" at the top of their lungs. Then maybe we would be able to hear what the police were saying and get a better insight.
And whoever the friggin moron was that stood 6 inches from the police screaming "shame" really wasnt helping.
I mean really, do you really think your being even marginally effective at accomplishing anything?
The fault for this situation is not in the RCMP's hands, my friends. The protesters should not have prevented the VFD from doing their job. The whole thing got out of hand quickly, not helped by the fact that "Fuck the pigs" was chanted repeatedly by a lot of students. The youtube video being mentioned by some of these students actually made me less inclined to back the SDS here. Initially when I heard about it all, I thought the RCMP may have taken things way too far, but upon seeing what actually happened, I think both parties acted ridiculously.
"Police brutality" is a phrase that should be reserved for actual brutality (i.e. random beatings and other violent behaviour). But when students don't cooperate with being arrested, it's common procedure to move them in the way the RCMP did. They were picked up and essentially carried to the cruisers. Being lifted by your armpits as you drag your feet because you don't want to move does not equate to being brutalized.
That's my 2 cents anyway.
-Mitch Wright
Any chance that Geoff Dunbrack could e-mail me back? I'm doing a story about this for the Globe and Mail and we'd like to use some photos to go along with the story. I can be reached at jesse.ferreras@gmail.com.
Thanks!
These people are an embarrassment to UBC.
Ratjen should be removed from office.
I really have to say that the overall tone of these comments, being in support of the RCMP versus the Knollies, makes me feel a lot better. It's sad that the Knollies are going to end up representing UBC throughout this whole thing in the media and more, but to know that there are still a lot of students who understand logic and reason is heartening.
Emily Walker, thank you for pointing out the discrepancy regarding "midnight". I was there at 11 as well, and it was quite dead. I ran into a few people leaving the event, and a few people admiring the ridiculously large pile of ash.
To get a facebook message complaining about the RCMP "distorting the timeline", when the protesters did the same thing, shows some serious hypocrisy. When I pointed this out in a message to one of the Knoll Aid organizers, I got no reply. I'm glad it's been brought up here.
-Mitch Wright
We sent out a correction to the press release. It was entirely my fault. It's sad people are more eager to jump on that than the obvious discrepancies in the RCMP's account that are much more intended to whitewash their actions. The reality is that there was no "danger" when the mass arrests were made. I'll repeat it again: I find it extremely sad that people who were not there are so eager to support the police's actions before hearing from the many eyewitnesses.
I'm taking the videos and pictures over eyewitness accounts. They're more empirical and thus more credible, to me.
no offense steven klein, but these so-called "eyewitnesses" are as biased as they come.
spare us. please.
The videos don't give a complete timeline of what happened. There are two key things that are obviously false in the RCMP's report, and this can be corroborated by everyone there:
1. That they only arrested one person at while putting out the fire. They actually arrested two. The video shows Stef being arrested, but she wasn't the individual who was eventually booked. Ergo, she had to have been let go. The reason they are erasing that from what happened is because she was released due to the sort of passive resistance students then used with the individual in the car. To admit she had been arrested and then released would force the RCMP to admit that we weren't being aggressive or dangerous.
2. That the reinforcements were called to help with the "dangerous" situation of the fire. In fact, the reinforcements were called to have enough people to arrest everyone around the car, and we sat around talking with them for over an hour while this "dangerous" and "aggressive" situation unfolded. In fact, it was peaceful and positive, even though everyone was very upset about how the police had handled the first two arrests.
"I guess my question is did two hours really pass where people just stood there after the fire was put out, and then the cops starting taking people down? That sounds fishy. I left Koerner's at 8pm and I heard sirens from the centre of campus."
Just to be clear - yes, two hours passed, rather than four like I had implied. The fire incident was at around 8 PM and the mass arrests was around 10 PM. In between, we stood around and chatted. I found out that one of the RCMP officers was a few years older than me, how he liked working in Richmond, and what he thought about the situation. I think he hoped that we could have resolved it without arrests. After, he gave me the "I had to do my job" line. I liked him as an individual but opposed what he had to do as a police officer.
If the pointless fire had not occurred perhaps the cops would have time to do much more important things than dismantle a hazardous fire on our campus.
This is "police brutality"??!
That is an insult to anyone who has had the unfortunate reality of suffering actual police brutality. The cops were doing their jobs.
That is almost embarressing as the fact that one of OUR ELECTED STUDENT COUNCIL REPRESENTATIVES was a part of this obnoxious occurrance.
-pc
Steven and Everyone else,
I understand your passion. However...
I think its quite obvious that a majority believe the Knoll people were at fault and the police were acting within the law.
I think their actions will prove to be detrimental to their cause. I really hope that the university will see this as a last straw. They own the land and can do whatever they want with it and now I completely support the underground loop and anything else they plan to build. I also hope that a lot of people will stop supporting Trek Park over this. I would also gladly sign a petition to remove involved AMS members from their offices.
In the meantime...
1) People (not necessarily on this board) should stop referring to this as police brutality. If you think this is brutality you are ignorant of the entire world outside of Canada.
2) Anyone talking to the media or issuing press releases should make a point of stating that they do not represent the entire school. I don't like the way this makes UBC students look. Pretending to be a representative of all of us is unethical.
-Rob
"I think its quite obvious that a majority believe the Knoll people were at fault and the police were acting within the law."
This isn't obvious to me at all. Yes, many of the comments I have seen so far have not been supportive of the protesters. I don't think anyone can extrapolate from that to "a majority".
"
I think their actions will prove to be detrimental to their cause. I really hope that the university will see this as a last straw. They own the land and can do whatever they want with it and now I completely support the underground loop and anything else they plan to build."
That has to be one of the most illogical things I have ever read. So, because you disagree with how some students dealt with a police situation you want to give away ANY say in how that space is going to be used? While I appreciate your nuance in acknowledging the passion of the people who were there, this is certainly not a nuanced thing to say.
"1) People (not necessarily on this board) should stop referring to this as police brutality. If you think this is brutality you are ignorant of the entire world outside of Canada."
It certainly was a police overreaction and excessive use of force. Obviously it is not nearly as bad as what happens to protesters or activists elsewhere in the world (although how the police deal with the Downtown Eastside is often as bad as anything in the world). That doesn't mean we should let them off the hook.
"2) Anyone talking to the media or issuing press releases should make a point of stating that they do not represent the entire school. I don't like the way this makes UBC students look. Pretending to be a representative of all of us is unethical."
I'm a UBC student and I want a public inquiry. So do many other UBC students I've talked to. So does a UBC student group, Students for a Democratic Society, who sent out the press release. So, UBC studentS are calling for a public inquiry. The media (and everyone else, for that matter) know good and well that we are only one perspective, and I would never say something like "All students are in agreement that there should be an inquiry". I don't think there is anything at all unethical there.
Tristan Markle shouldn't be commenting to the media as [Alma Mater] "Society vice-president of administration". Understandably as a student, he has a right to voice his opinions on issue that affect him. He should be doing that in he capacity of Knoll editor, not as an AMS exec. From an external standpoint, it seems that the AMS is condemning the police's actions as well. The president of the society is allowed to issue statements, but only after they have all been consulted. This has not been the case.
Steven,
You are obviously frustrated.
There is nothing to let them off the hook from. When police say "You are under arrest" you comply and wait for your hearing to have your side be heard. That is why we have a justice system. I would hate to live in a country where people get to choose whether or not to listen to police. That would be an extremely dangerous place.
If you really have to bring the Downtown East Side into this lets remember that it is very hard to "reason" with drug induced violence. Which, I know is not every case, but is some.
Now maybe someone should point out how the world works. The university owns it, they can do whatever they want with it as long as its legal. We can lobby for something else but at the end of the day its their call. You may wish that you can make every decision for yourself but unfortunately you can't.
-Rob
What the Foucault, Steven!?
Get back to your thesis!
Dr. Carty
"The organizers, Students for a Democratic Society and Trek Park for People, said the protest was peaceful and only became violent after police arrived on the scene."
-Global News
Did SDS and TP really say that? Hahahaha! "Yeah we uh...only became violent after people we didn't like showed up"
HA!
"University students belong to the Alma Mater Society, the school's student association.
Society vice-president of administration Tristan Markle called on university president Stephen Toope to condemn the arrests."
-Canadian Press
Sounds like he's trying to speak for all students to me. Also Steven, did you really say the police were "inexperienced". What are the chances that 30 some odd officers will all be new on the job?
without a doubt, one of the most pathetic things about ubc is its extreme lack of cultural and academic critique. if certain levels of societal critique do not happen at a university, they happen nowhere. we wonder why that's the case at ubc - well we have the explanation on this wall.
this isn't about a fire, or about supposed and surmised details on an event it seems nearly no commenter here attended - it's about societal critique that can *only* happen at a university. even if you are for total privatization and commercialization of the university, shouldn't students and the public be informed about the proposed changes and have a voice in the discussion? this event is a result of the total lack of that voice, and the comments here and at the cbc board are proof that both the student body and public haven't a clue about the issues being discussed.
within the absurd structure of security police perform whatever act and the defense thereof comes in the arbitrarity of the structure itself - the most "justified" to comment are the people not even present ("well they must have had SOME reason!") - in short, the people whose opinions are themselves objectively arbitrary, connected only to a kind of a priori codification and not to the experience of the event in question. to negate or falsify an absurd structure is impossible, to support it is both useless and meaningless - the only understanding of it comes from transgression or external inquiry - or experience of its practice.
however the more fundamental issue at stake here is not this - but rather what sort of total silencing gives rise to the inevitable need for such an event to even have a modicum of a voice? the answer lies in the comments on this board, both the ones written, and the blind indirected vitriolic ones to come.
"Also Steven, did you really say the police were "inexperienced"."
I was referring to the officer who arrested Stef, the same one who was in that photo scandal in the UBC. He definitely struck me as inexperienced and unable to properly deal with the situation. Also, I think many of the cops who made the random arrests from the crowd were definitely inexperienced. That, to me, doesn't show good judgment. I would think you would want to minimize the number of arrests in situations where you are trying to get a crowd to move back, and if someone doesn't respond quickly you just continue to try to get people to move back unless they directly try to intervene.
""The organizers, Students for a Democratic Society and Trek Park for People, said the protest was peaceful and only became violent after police arrived on the scene."
-Global News
Did SDS and TP really say that? Hahahaha! "Yeah we uh...only became violent after people we didn't like showed up""
No surprise that it is a paraphrase. I have no idea where they got that from but they certainly could have twisted it out of several statements that were made. Obviously it doesn't reflect what happened.
Steve Klein says: "I'm a UBC student and I want a public inquiry. So do many other UBC students I've talked to. So does a UBC student group, Students for a Democratic Society, who sent out the press release. So, UBC studentS are calling for a public inquiry."
Quote from G&M article: "Steve Klein, of the Students for a Democratic Society, says police used excessive force, aggravated a peaceful situation and engaged in a process of misinformation with the media following an anti-development rally at the university on Friday."
In other words: Steve, the organization he speaks on behalf of, and the other students in the organization, want an inquiry.
The only thing UBC studentS are calling for is that Steve, his friends, and the SDS stop making completely exaggerated claims about everything.
Dear xoxoxcom, inc,
You're saying some smart things, which is why I feel the need to tear myself away from my paper to respond... okay, writing the paper is kind of boring too.
You bring up two issues that I can discern.
1) the lack of "cultural and academic critique" at UBC.
You ask, "what sort of total silencing [of such a critique, presumably] gives rise to the inevitable need for such an event to even have a modicum of a voice?"
SDS, the Knoll et al. are providing the very cultural and academic critique you speak of. This critique has been aired in several legitimate forms that I can think of: AMS elections, the creation of Trek Park, the Resisting the University Conference. (It's also happened in some illegitimate ways, such as the Wreath Underground's vandalism of the Ponderosa building). I don't think anyone's really suggesting that such a critique not be allowed on campus.
I would also suggest that, perhaps due to a focus on a Marxist critique, you're missing some other forms of cultural critique which UBC is at the centre of - witness the large queer and trans communities, the Positive Space workshop program, and the integration of feminist and queer theories about acceptance and diversity into the workings of UBC.
You also ask "shouldn't students and the public be informed about the proposed changes"; to which I say a resounding Yes. I'd say that, while the University and the AMS have not been perfect in doing so, there has been a general movement toward giving the student body information and input in development plans. It's true this has been influenced at least in part by the actions of students in the "cultural critique" that you speak of.
2) the ability of those who did or did not experience an event to understand it
I would probably be one of "the people whose opinions are themselves objectively arbitrary, connected only to a kind of a priori codification and not to the experience of the event in question."
You're correct inasmuch as that my opinion of the event in question is connected only to the representations of the event through video and the subjective accounts of the eyewitnesses, as well as the responses of others on this board and others. However, I'd dispute that my view is "arbitrary" and certainly dispute that it is meaningless--I'd wager have put at least as much intellectual analysis into the events as many who were there. (Also, I think the entire tradition of academia and representative government would disagree that "the only understanding of [the absurd structure of security] comes from transgression or external inquiry - or experience of its practice.")
Anyways, back to my dinner and essay. Thanks for the somewhat intellectually leaning post, though.
Hey Stephen...how do you do bold on here? It will help me put an emphasis my truth.
-Rob
Pay attention to the writing underneath the comment box - you can use tags like < b >, < i > or < a >.
Use responsibly. ;) Sorry for the double post.
To xoxoxcom - You say that the underlying issue here is commercialization and a lack of a student voice in planning decisions, and that peple commenting here are missing those points entirely. I have to dissagree with that. Here on the blog we've covered happenings on the development issues and student advocacy surrounding them in great detail - and there has been discussion of it. In all of last year I would say the AMS's most significant accomplishment was the success in completely delaying and changing the above-ground plans for the U-square area. At this point it seems liekly that most of the space will be given over to the new SUB, an Alumni centre, and a resonstructed grassy knoll. It would seem to rational participants that that battle has been won already. Yes there's more consultation and planning before the plans are finalized, but the structure and expectations are now in place that students will have a voice. If they don't, I welcome demands that they should.
This is a different discussion, surrounding the specific incidents of friday night, etc.
Maayan says: "At this point it seems liekly that most of the space will be given over to the new SUB, an Alumni centre, and a resonstructed grassy knoll."
Rather than being a separate discussion, I think this ties in quite nicely with Friday's incidents. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that as AMS VPs, Stef and Tristan would have had to publicly align themselves with the 'yes' side of the SUB Renew referendum (it is actually under Tristan's portfolio AND it was part of his election campaign).
On Friday, they were out there protesting the development of U-Blvd, which is now primarily composed of the new SUB.
To that I say: WTF?
eden/edna
Easier said than done! :P
You know what I say "WTF?" to?
The fact that Tristan finds is ok to go on to the radio and do interviews in his capacity as VP Admin of the AMS and speak to the horrible conditions that the arrested persons had to endure.
That's what I say "WTF?" to.
(In the not-so-distant future...)
MOVED MICHAEL DUNCAN, SECONDED CHRIS DIPLOCK:
"Whereas the involvement of Stefanie Ratjen (VP External Affairs) in the events of April 4, 2008 call into question her ability to represent the Alma Mater Society externally in an effective and responsible manner; and
Whereas the public statements to the media of Tristan Markle (VP Administration), in which he ostensibly speaks as a representative of the Alma Mater Society, were given without the authority to act as such, and to the detriment of the credibility of the Society,
Be it resolved that Stefanie Ratjen be removed from office,
Be it further resolved that the AMS censure Tristan Markle.
You can make it happen, council!
Incidentally, I am entirely opposed to the underground bus loop, and to housing and market retail in U-Square, but I am disgusted with the actions of the Knoligarchy and their brethren (how many of the "peaceful protestors" do you think might just possibly have had something to do with the Wreath Underground?).
Despite anecdotal remarks to the contrary from several on this board, I believe that a majority of students - and faculty! - do oppose commercial development in the heart of campus. You want more retail on campus? There's some nice land in South Campus for retail to service the residential neighbourhoods, and if you need to get to Safeway, take the bus. Land in such a central campus location should be solely reserved for academic buildings and student social space; once it's gone, it's gone.
However, the manner in which these (insert plural epithet here) have promoted the issue will surely do nothing but harm to their cause. The University (Knollic translation: the man) will feel completely justified - and have public support - in refusing to sit down with you. Those students/faculty (yes, faculty!) who would have previously taken a stand with them will be far more reluctant to take action. The quietly apathetic/opposed students have now become vocally opposed to your cause (the "bury the hippies in the bus tunnel" rhetoric is just heating up). And who wants to wager the "War on Fun" is about to hit a surge?
I am no fan of the VPD or RCMP; if the police treated the protestors inappropriately, then certainly complaints should be filed. The cyclist is a possible case-in-point. But "brutality" is out of the question, from video footage and most eyewitness accounts. This isn't their APEC. "Fuck the police" does not exemplify a slogan of peaceful protest, and the Vancouver Fire Department is not Sam Sullivan's fascist organ of oppression.
Maybe someday they'll understand the repercussions of their actions - that this was the turning point where the University stopped treating student politicians and activists as adults. They will surely no longer feel justified in doing so.
-JB
Hehe. Given the emphasis people are placing on the Exec working together, perhaps it's inappropriate for other Exec to bring forward censure/impeachment motions...
JB - You summed up my feelings on the matter far better than I could have. Hear, hear!
Eden/Edna - I only wish all of life's problems could be resolved by a game of Settlers!
-MP
The citing of mine and Mikes name in the 1:16 am post does not represent the views of Mike and I. It was not based off of any comments or actions of Mike and I. I'm really disappointed that someone felt the need to include our names and does not have the balls to include their own. This comments purpose seems to be to stir shallow controversy; I hope no one takes the bait. If you'd like to know our actual views I'd encourage you to come to council on Wednesday.
Diplock
AMS VP Finance
*sob*
-mn
This is so embarrassing, for the knoll supporters because they can't step back and act in their usual calm manner, for the ams because it is being misrepresented nationally, for the students because they're actually surprised that the radical candidates they elected have continued to be politically radical, and for our campus in general because everyone is surprised that the police pretty much treat students whatever way they like. Shit like this, and way worse, has been happening in the Greek Village, and even at Ladha when Greeks rented it, since last spring. Now everyone is waking up- and look, all they had to do was start a fire.
-S.S
we didnt start the fire...
:P
I'm looking for a little enlightenment here Knoll supporters:
I've just talked with someone more knowledgeable than myself. This person has told me that UBC already decided not to build the bus loop and to turn the land over to the AMS to put the new SUB in.
So my question would be...Why are you still protesting? What do you still want to accomplish?
"I've just talked with someone more knowledgeable than myself. This person has told me that UBC already decided not to build the bus loop and to turn the land over to the AMS to put the new SUB in."
What the hell! That's completely not true. The Board of Governors has approved $10 mil for the tunnel already, and is just waiting to approve the rest for the underground bus loop. The AMS has some sort of lease over a large portion of that land which they will now be able to use because of SUB renew, but they haven't even begun to negotiate with the administration about that. Whoever you talked to was mistaken.
Fair enough, but it is my understanding that the Knoll will be left in tact. So chanting "Fuck the pigs, save the Knoll" is kind of useless because the knoll has already been saved.
Furthermore, Isn't have a couple businesses and a bus loop better than a barren useless parking lot?
Im curious as to if that person was me...
The current university plans involve the removal of what is right now the knoll.
The primary reason for this is the exact location of the knoll, which is where ventilation and whatnot for th eunderground loop must go.
The current plans however DO include a knoll-like entity on campus.
The general theory is that it will be a hill with grass and a few trees. Sound familiar? The only difference is its location, which would be moved (if memory serves) across teh street or some such.
There will still be a primary fixture for the area made out of dirt, grass and trees.
So in reality, the knoll argument is pretty ridiculously oversimplified.
I wouldnt want o put words in the mouth of the knolligarchs (Some of whom by the way arent completely on the demented kool-aid train and are quite sane, though its rare), but it seems that the knoll is simply the face of their argument, and that they are also calling for a decrease in commercial space and a relatively myopic opposition to the underground busloop.
Then might I suggest protesting commercialization directly?
Protesting to keep a stupid grass hill that only a handful of people use makes you seem a bit "out there" to your would-be supporters.
Surprisingly, the knoll is hugely popular on campus as a concept.
Sure, not many people use it, but everyone loves it, and theres polling data to back that up.
Thus, focusing on the knoll is a great way to get people to come out to your events and sign your forms.
Kinda disingenuous at this stage, but its a good rally cry as a concept.
Patrick, you're mistaken: the tunnel have been approved by the BoG. The bus loop hasn't yet, but will be undoubtedly soon. Since the loop is under all of the area of the old bus loop, knoll, and SUB south plaza, yes, the knoll will be removed. But after the underground loop is covered up, most of the land will go over to the AMS and Alumni centre. Elements like small retail and studet housing are also still possible. With SUB renew now approved, the AMS has a fair bit of power in dictating how this will play out. The idea of reconstructing the knoll on location (same place) was suggested by Campus and community planning in their last revised design from the fall. hope that helps.
As Patrick suggests, the knoll in itself has never been our primary concern. It is a symbol and a concrete way to get students to care. The deeper issues are BoG reform, student power, development, and commercialization.
As Steve says, the battle over the knoll is hardly won, but even if it was it would hardly be a signal for "rational participants" to pack up and go home. It would be a signal to push harder, because students really do have the power to change the direction of the university.
What might be missing in the discussion is not that commercialization is an issue, but that there is a link between the battle over the knoll and wider issues.
Umm... Mayaan, I never implied otherwise... Im not sure what I siad that you think Im mistaken about...
I do find it curious that the knoll is only a figurepiece for the campaign, and yet is the ONLY thing I have really seen as regards the campaign.
What you said are all valid Mike, but those on campus pushing the knolligarch agenda are unfortunately not articulating any of it in the majority of their materials.
An updated list of things the "Knollies" are fighting against this week:
1. Capitalism
2. The University (Toope, Sullivan, et al)
3. Matt Naylor
4. U-Blvd and development on campus
5. Alex Lougheed (who?)
6. The VPD, the RCMP, and for some reason the VFD
7. Matt Naylor
and pretty soon....Public opinion!
BV.
I'd like to add a few more:
8. Cultural imperialism
9. Anglo-chauvinism
10. Systematic oppression
11. /insert your own buzzword of choice/
12. Reason
... etc.
-SS
Pat - just that they are planning to reconstruct the knoll on site, not across the street (original plans to put it in front of the Wesbrook building got canned). I just put the otehr stuff in for background. sorry.
just to be perfectly clear the SS who just posted was not me, the one before was.
Shawn Stewart
AMS Clubs Commissioner
This just demonstrates so clearly how privileged we are as UBC students. This protest was first about "save the knoll", which is relatively frivolous and then changed to "save the fire", which is incredibly frivolous.
Considering all the things that are wrong in the city, that deserve protest, why not just let the firefighters put out a hazardous fire, and protest something worthwhile?
And I agree that shouting "fuck the pigs" is incredible hostile, not peaceful.
Though of course the police are obligated to deal with crap like this without resorting to brutality.
- Alison Brown
i want to marry you based on this comment.
sds does some nice things pertaining to fostering dialogue opportunities on campus and global politics.
this, however, just smacks of irrelevance and entitlement. i can think of so many more worthy causes than making ubc a safe place for the people who have the means to attend ubc to party.
sds does not speak for most students at ubc. this place is kind of a magnet for people looking for training that will set them up in a nice private sector career. it is located in point fuckin grey, one of the toniest friggin neighbourhoods in the city. defending ubc is hardly part of the fight against the excesses of global capitalism.
i am not against partying, by any means, but i think egging the cops on and turning yourselves into martyrs is kind of laughable. this is just the kind of street cred the sds'ers need.
I'm still loling over people complaining about having to drink tap water in jail.
Well I know if I were dumb enough to go and get myself arrested, I'd demand some fucking Evian. With a lemon!
How the protest/party for the Knoll could have occurred without controversy:
1) If there had never been a large bonfire light in public space (bylaw infraction).
2)If some of the people at Knoll Aid 2.0 had not interferred with the firefighters conducting their responsibility to put out a hazardous fire.
3) If some of the people at Knoll Aid 2.0 ad not interferred with the RCMP doing their jobs, arresting people who got in obstructed either the firefighters or the RCMP's duties.
Did any of the above mentioned actions help bring us closer to saving the Knoll...no.
Of what effect was anything the party-goers (who turned into protesters only after the cops showed up) did that night...nothing constructive.
Are police legitimately allowed to hit people if they are uncooperative...yes. Did this happen...probably. Is this police brutality...heck no.
I surely do want to move on from this, and continue to work with all UBC students on campus issues, but let's not dwell on this issue as if it were a positive action on the part of the students involved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSu3jiqvm00
So according to one of the protesters they were warned they'd be arrested if they stayed around the car, but they just thought "it was a scare tactic". Wow, really?
Well that's just the final nail in the coffin for me, on how it is not the RCMP's fault here. Students were given perfectly fair warning that if they continued what they were doing, they would be arrested. I have 0 sympathy.
I find it disturbing that the Knoll protesters are enthusiastically, even aggressively promoting sexual relations with pigs.
While I think it is good to be open-minded, I cannot in good conscience support bestiality. How can it be known whether or not the pigs have given their consent?
I urge fellow students to join in condemnation of these pro-bestiality sentiments.
Sheep, as we all know, are more affectionate anyhow.
And softer. Mmm.
From: The Globe and Mail
""I was just like, what are you doing, why are you here right now? What is your objective with the fire hose?" Ms. Ratjen said in an interview."
How about to put out the freakin' fire? I don't know how anyone can take the protesters seriously anymore, when you find them saying things like this.
Front page of the BC Globe and Mail. Well done guys. We all look like dicks.
hey everyone. i haven't visited this blog for months (wow. it would take forever to address the, um, lofty rhetoric contained on these pages, so i won't attempt it. for the open minded: please feel free to talk to me about anything. you may find that many things are not as presented in these posts - quite the reverse!).
as for friday night:
1) the bonfire was indeed a bylaw infraction
2) i was not there on friday, and i wish i had been to de-escalate the situation
3) some people at the concert on friday became counter-productively rowdy
4) the police arrested people who shouldn't have been arrested; there were also people who got arrested for civil disobedience in protest of what they perceived to be police misconduct.
5) everyone should have their charges dropped, and their student union should ask that their charges be dropped (regardless of presumed politics). it is very surprising they were not dropped already, and it will be unusual if most or all do not get a complete discharge. the trial is on april 15, and it would be very bad (understatement) for (for example) AMS council to try to address the details before that. i hope that makes sense to everyone.
6) you may want to consider having compassion for people who go through the prison system. it is extremely traumatizing. many will need counseling.
7) i did talk to the media, and though i always made sure to clarify that i was not speaking for the entire exec (never mind for AMS as a whole) the distinction between myself and the organization inevitably becomes ambiguous. i felt that was something i had to risk given the urgency (it was the weekend, and no one else in the AMS was speaking out), but i completely understand if people feel misrepresented. we have talked about this at the exec level and are putting together a more formal protocol for dealing with this.
8) the underground busloop is a bad idea.
9) it is already AMS policy that the bus loop is a bad idea.
10) the AMS may want to reassert that policy.
there is of course much more to say, but i'll end with
peace & love,
tristan
Tristan if you were trying to inform the media of the situation as a concerned student and not as a VP of the AMS the media obviously made a huge mistake. You should be contacting the media outlets immediately so they can issue a clarification and apology to the public.
Tristan,
Not all the charges should be dropped. Especially not the "Assault on a Police Officer". If that happened, and I trust the courts will find the truth, that individual should spend some time in prison.
Secondly you should have left your elected title out of it. The news should read "Student" Tristan or "Protester" Tristan.
And don't accuse people of being politically motivated over this. I even voted for you and I regret it.
6) you may want to consider having compassion for people who go through the prison system. it is extremely traumatizing. many will need counseling.
?
I know of the prison system, both in Canada and overseas. What was so traumatizing? Losing dignity? I honestly think the students who were arrested and spent a night in the slammer are upset because they had to deal with the consequences. there's your 'psychological trauma'-- being hit in the face with reality. I do have compassion for the students, but not because they were jailed. I have compassion for the fact that maybe this is the first time some of them are realizing that they can't just do whatever they want.
We have laws for a reason and unfortunately (but rightfully so) this is what happens when they're broken.
I am very disappointed in the AMS. I am a working student, and I have to pay mandatory AMS fees, to apparently support actions such as those that took place on Friday. Sorry, but this is stupid. I agree with your goals, but not the way you're going about trying to achieve them.
It is a breath of fresh air indeed to see the "protester's" being so cute, and acting in such an adult manner. Fortunately for us all, they possess far superior knowledge of Fire Fighting, and Policing than the people that are trained in those Professions. I think that perhaps they could conduct Training at the R.C.M.P. Depot in Regina, or the Justice Institute, and share their expertise.
"What is your objective with the fire hose?"
LOL WUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
there's a difference between being a theory-head and giving theory head. yanno?
-mjb
Stefanie Ratjen should be not take her office in Fall. I personally would not like her to represent us, the student body. It's really hard to defend someone who obstructed firefighters who attempted to put a fire down in the name of public safety.
The protest looks more like a party just like the ones we usually see in Wreck beach which is also btw illegal to light a bonfire.
I just hope the public understand that this is an action done by a group of irresponsible students at UBC that misusing the good cause of opposing the overcommercialization of the campus into something so reckless.
Do you really need a bonfire to have a protest? If you really want to be taken seriously, maybe you should have taken care of the grassy patches you left to rot since fall. Develop some work ethics, will you guys?
It's really hard to take the AMS executives seriously after two questionable incidents involving Alex Lougheed and his multiple vote casting and Stefanie Ratjen and her antics jumping in front of the fire fighters.
I think AMS executives need to stop interfere with Student Court decision. an appeal to throw these two shamed AMS executives should be done.
There is something that really concerns me, this stems from Jasmine's comments on Facebook.
A note for Jasmine and others: STUDENTS WERE NOT ARRESTED FOR PROTESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We all admit that protesting is a right that we all have. I have not heard ONE person say that students should have been arrested for protesting. However, students SHOULD have been arrested for obstructing the VFD and Police, assaulting a police officer, and not dispersing after the police had wisely deemed the situation volatile.
Get down off the victim pedestal, you don't belong on it.
-Rob
I'm of two minds on Stefanie stepping down.
On one hand, I really think she should. The fact that her job requires her to liaise with the RCMP is obviously the most worrying facet, considering her display of obvious contempt for their authority. It does not set a good tone for the future.
On the other hand, I feel like another by-election would just further denigrate the legitimacy of the AMS in students' eyes.
Mike Duncan, I wish you all the best. Haha. Poor guy.
"All the people that are whining about the protest tend to be arrogant privileged white students like yourselves."
The racists insane ramblings of Jasmine Ramzee Rezae
She really is a piece of work. I divide my reaction to her between intense frustration and hysterical laughter.
On the Students for a Lawful and Progressive Society's wall:
Jasmine Ramze Rezaee wrote
at 3:45pm
This group is an abomination and probably a CSIS front.
Jasmine Ramze Rezaee wrote
at 3:43pm
I'm tired of these white people that want to "save" Darfur but bitch about students protesting commercial development right under their noses. You have your priorities, we have ours, and they're not mutually exclusive. Quit thinking that you're somehow morally superior because you care about Darfur and show some solidarity.
http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=11428338379
Yep, she's absolutely fucking loco.
Ok, so I've only read one third of the commentary on this massive post so please excuse me if this has already been covered.
Everyone seems to be questioning the actions of the students when the firefighters arrived, whether or not police actions consitituted brutality, etc etc etc
But really, would any of this have happened had there not been a fire burning on a slab of pavement in the middle of a freekin' university campus? Bon fires might be well placed when you're camping or drinking in the middle of some field in the boonies, but not so well placed at UBC (the farm being one exception).
The way I see it: no fire = no fire department = no cops = good, safe protestin' times for all! Agree?
Besides, if this fire had anything to do with protest then people could have at least done it up right with an effigy or something!
Ok this topic is exhausted.
Puppies or kittens, people? Personally I'm all about kittens.
KITTENS!!!!!
I think this puppy/kitten debate may cause further rifts within the AMS.
kittens for life
I concur, kittens are quite obviously superior.
puppies. They're much more delicious than kittens.
Jasmine's Quotes sure are interesting:
Does anyone else find it slightly ironic that she grew up in a million dollar plus house in Mackenzie Heights.
You should check who you call 'priveleged' Ms Ramze, before people wonder why you have so much damn time on your hands.
also, Jasmine supports her right to protest, but not the right to protest for anyone she disagrees with. for example, she tore up signs at Block Party that said "Kno to the Knoll" and other things of that nature, and verbally harassed the very peaceful people who brought those signs.
hypocrisy at it's best
Ah, more poster ripping for Jasmine's resume. Add that to the Canadian Forces poster in the SUB I guess. That mixed with the constant immature, foul and hateful comments she posts on some groups and you got yourselves one big freakin' hypocrite. Is she graduating this year? Hopefully we won't be seeing much more of her.
More like a hippie-crite. Am I right or am I right?
*snort*
"apparently Stefanie Ratjen jumped in front of the firefighter hose when they tried to put out the fire. Why would you do that? It's not like it wasn't illegal to have the bonfire going"
may i point out here to all the people who write about the police being justified because the students 'interfered' with the fireman,
IF you watch the vidz you will see that the firemen turns on his hose, stef and a few others stand in front of it for A WHOLE 20 SECONDS!
20 seconds of protest then the water hits the fire and moments later it was out.
i dont want/need to argue the legalities and i dont want/need to argue if the fire was dangerous, but i WILL argue that singing and dancing in front of the waterhose for 20 SECONDS was nothing more than a jester protest.
there was no malice
nobody touched/assaulted the fireman
nobody damaged equipment
to be arrested for the 20 second delay is ludicrous!
if the fireman turned up the pressure Stef would have been blown away.
i'm sure the fireman never felt threatened and the police went too far in arresting anyone.. . . did the actual person who started the fire get arrested?
once the arrests were made the protest was no longer about the knoll.
these students were strong to sit around the police car knowing they could be arrested for protesting the arbitrary arrest of Icarus. they believed he was not arrested lawfully and did what they thought was right.
anyone who puts them down for it accepts an authoritarian state and has obviously not read the charter
for their peaceful protest 19 students were handcuffed and threatened with taser and dogs. what is this china?
'police just doing their job'
where have we heard that before?
it may come as news to you but policemen ARE NOT ROBOTS
they do not 'have' to do anything. the actions taken are relative to the situation and they must use their training and experience to decide what actions need taking.
personally i'm glad people were arrested because it calls to light 2 issues. 1 of the knoll
2 of the RCMP misconduct and bad decision making that has become all too common
have you seen the photos? it seems like there were more policemen than protesters. someone must have really convinced them the sky was falling!
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